Anton Imennov in programme "Rikoshet". "Ekho Moskvy", 19 September 2018
Research of Moscow Carnegie Center "Oligarchs on Networks". How Internet information may cause getting into sanctions list
A.Solomin - 18
– 35 in Moscow. Greetings to everyone! You are listening to "Ekho Moskvy". I'm Aleksey Solomin. In today's "Rikoshet" we'll speak about the Moscow Carnegie Center's publication. You can find it in the "Article of the day" blog on the "Echo Moskvy" website. Its authors are Sergey Gladin and Anton Imennov. And right now one of the authors, Anton Imennov, advocate, managing partner of the Moscow office of attorneys at law Pen & Paper, is joining us. How do you do?
A.Imennov
– Good evening, Aleksey. Thanks for having me in the air.
A.Solomin
– l'd like to inform our listeners that we are speaking about the principle of personal sanctions formation, and how these sanctions influence businesspeople and officials who fall under them. And the most interesting thing is how they get under sanctions – due to what kind of information, and where it comes from.
As I understand it from the article, information on the Internet is one of the main sources for American officials. This kind of information is treated with skepticism here. Do Americans take it seriously when making such decisions?
A.Imennov
– Yes, indeed, they do. During our research we came to the definite conclusion that OFAC – the US sanctions body, the division of the US Department of Treasury – regards the Internet as a serious source of information. The case of Deripaska shows how they came to the conclusion that he was a certain menace, and therefore he was included in the sanctions list.
A.Solomin
– Can you say what kind of information influenced the decision to include Deripaska in the list?
A.Imennov
– The list is pretty large...
A.Solomin
– Just a couple of examples.
A.Imennov
– Well, for instance, Deripaska feels himself as part of the Russian government. He admitted having a diplomatic passport, hence, he represented the interests of the Russian Federation.
A.Solomin
– And this is because of the Internet link in Google, just a mentioning, an article or something of the kind?
A.Imennov
– That is almost exactly what he said. But it is not that easy. If you enter a certain search algorithm, you'll get thousands of results, links. Some of the links refer to the very trustworthy sources. I.e., there is gradation of mass media for OFAC. The first level media are such respectable English language periodicals as the Financial Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal etc.
A.Solomin
– Even if they make references to their own sources, if it is not a person's direct speech?
A.Imennov
– Right. But there's such an amount of various information here. It may be references to direct speech, and also information which, I'm quite sure, undergoes additional verification. But the starting point is this information from the Internet. And, it's important to note that this information hasn't been refuted.
A.Solomin
– Our fellow citizens' position is as follows: there are all sorts of things on the Internet, one can also find some information written on a fence. Americans understand it like this: if you haven't come to court and stated that this is not true, it means that this is true.
A.Imennov
– Let's make a couple of reservations here. Firstly, everything depends on the level of mass media. We don't consider some Telegram-channels or such rubbish sites as ... I won't mention them in live broadcast, but everyone knows what I mean.
Secondly, the quality of information is analysed. It means, there are no idiots there. Although they view only English language sites, they analyse information thoughtfully enough.
Here's another example. The algorithm we mention in our article can be applied to any Russian oligarch of some importance. Your chief editor, Aleksey Venediktov, may be the next. He works in the "Gasprom" structure and, in his own words, he is a friend of Peskov. When all oligarchs come to an end, he may be asked some questions, or when he crosses the border...
A.Solomin
– I can reply using your own words: "There are no idiots there".
Before asking you another question, let me ask our listeners to vote on the matter of personal sanctions, the division of sanctions into the personal ones and those imposed against a state. Is it just, in your opinion, if sanctions are imposed on a state, and are not limited to personal ones? If yes, it's fair – call 660 06 64, if not – 660 06 65.
– Anton, I would like to ask you one more question – about social networks. Is it a problem for the Russian officials and businesspeople who are under threat of sanctions or already under them?
A.Imennov
– l would like to say the following: let's make a consideration on the premise that the one's tongue is the one's foe; one should always be careful with what they say because we are living now in the new reality of the sanctions law, and our world has become absolutely transparent, words like 'inaudible' have come into use. And the main piece of advice: the one should decide either he/she is a businessperson, or a politician.
A.Solomin
– Because it's a very important link. If a person takes part in the political life of a country, they get under scrutiny of the researchers from the Department of Treasury and other infrastructures.
A.Imennov
– We are well aware that lobbying is legal in the US, but there is no such a concept in our legislation. So, serious criminal risk occur here, and the theme we are discussing as well – that is sanctions risk, when a person who runs a business doesn't separate themselves from the state, and therefore it may be assumed that they capitalize on that state.
A.Solomin
– Thank you very much. It was Anton Imennov, advocate, managing partner of the Moscow office of attorneys at law Pen & Paper, the author of the article published by the Moscow Carnegie Center. The article is called "Oligarchs on Networks. What information from the Internet makes Russian business fall under sanctions". This material is available on our website echo.msk.ru in the part "Article of the day".
And now I'm summarizing the voting: 58% of our listeners say that sanctions against a state are quite fair, 42% – that it would be fair to limit sanctions to personal ones.
I'm Aleksey Solomin. It was the "Rikoshet" programme. Thank you for listening and watching "Echo Moskvy" on YouTube. All the best for everyone!